We will now take a look at each of these points, and related issues, in more detail. Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by WVTexan, Nov 21, 2013. In the AG-5B, the 12-volt electrical system was replaced with a 24-volt system, and the refresh included several minor systems and aerodynamic improvements, plus improved corrosion coating. The Citabria is a derivative of the Aeronca Champ and was first produced in 1964 by Champion Aircraft Corporation. You should know that, despite the above, there are possibly more similarities than differences between the Cessna 172 and the Cessna 150. It will keep up with an Arrow. The reports of excellent visibility are not overstated: The wraparound windows, low beltline and low instrument panel provide a panoramic view. Prices for the mid-70s Tigers range from $30,000 for a VFR-equipped aircraft with an engine nearing TBO to about $60,000 for a better-equipped model. It could also be used for simple aerobatic training things like aileron rolls, loops, spins, and upset recovery. You get the sense of sitting at a low desk on a mountaintop. That wood isn't 50 years old and it is glued to a steel frame including a roll cage cabin. Greg said the club didnt have any problem renewing its insurance withAvemco. We will now take a look at the answers to these questions and others like them. To provide a more up-to-date cost perspective, the Wild River Flying Club in Osceola, WI operates a 1979 Citabria with a 150-hp Lycoming O-320. They're thrifty to run, simple to maintain, light on the controls and have great visibility with their sliding canopies. $37.09 + $15.58 shipping . Three or four of the 10 members would use it for aerobatics a lot. Greg said. A 1975 Grumman AA-5B Tiger (N74429) \u0026 a 1997 Cessna 172R Skyhawk landing on Runway 10 at Princeton Airport (39N) in New Jersey followed by a 1982 Eurocopter AS366 TwinStar (N355MT) taking off shortly upon my arrival on the field. Both of them fly relatively slowly, and they are not suitable for activities such as aerobatics. If not, then which is best? On the other hand, smaller people may struggle to fly the Cessna 172, particularly earlier models. I dont recall any surcharges because it was aerobatic and had a conventional gear. 2. ). They charge $90 an hour wet. Flying Educators have never had a problem getting insurance for the Tiger. It is such an OWT there's even a guy who makes satirical videos about it. As of this writing, 13 examples are listed at a median price of $48,500, with a median airframe time of 3,500 hours. Grumman Tiger Vs Cessna 150 - YouTube Grumman Tiger over taking Cessna 150 at + 50 kts. 180-hp Lycoming O360 burns 10 gph. Otherwise I can take a photo of the for sale sign at the airport sometime. https://thepilotsplace.com/contact.html. The lineage began with Jim Bedes homebuilt BD-1, which first flew in 1963. With afixed-pitch prop and fixed gear, its simple to operate. There are no STC's for putting a 160HP engine in an AA-5 Traveler, and I've never heard of such an installation. It's faster than a 172 and carries about the same load (typically about 800-850 lb useful), but is not as tolerant of grass or extremely short runways. If you currently have an account on Pilots Place, your According to Greg, the 115-hpCitabria burned about 5 to 6 gph, making it economical to operate. If you touch it, its going to move an aileron or elevator, Mike said. If it is a new paint job people have got stripper in the joints remember this plane is glued together and stripper in the glue is bad, make sure this did not happen. But we were both fairly small, and we did have to limit ourselves to only a small amount of luggage, so as not to find ourselves with weight and balance issues. send a link to set up your password on the Pilots Place site, and when you After a while you get to the point where you learn to tap the brake instead of dragging the brake. One letter called the new Cessna 172 "the rough technological and stylisticequivalent of a 1966 Chevy Novaat the price of two Mercedes." Another called the announced $124,500 base price of the new Skyhawk"incredible" and suggested that $75,000 or $80,000 would be appropriate. The Citabria breed has an AD requiring a one-time inspection of the wooden spar where they have to check it for cracks. Picture . It was developed from the 1948 Cessna 170 but with tricycle landing gear rather than conventional landing gear.The Skyhawk name was originally used for a trim package, but was later applied to . The American Yankee Association is the original type club and holds regular events, including an annual convention. Nicest one Ive ever seen. It's kinda underpowered for what we were doing with it, luckily no one was heavy and the distances weren't far. Copyright 2023 Aviator Insider | A Topsail Media Company | Powered by Astra WordPress Theme. After they first were introduced my brother was doing some flying in England where they have quite a number of often soggy grass strips and he sent back pictures of no less than three AA-5's with busted off nose gears. Considering pre-flight, trip time, rides to and from airports, etc., it was faster driving on any trip less than about 200 miles. If your club is looking for an economical aircraft that can serve as a primary trainer and a solid cross-country platformwith good performance, the Grumman Tiger is a plane you may want to consider. Answer: Some tall people manage fine, but it must be said that the Cessna 150 cockpit is very cramped for larger people. Insurance for our 1979 Citabria (Model 7-ECA) was $870 in 89 and had risen to $2,195 when we sold it in 95, Greg said. Youre going to get more airspeed out of a Tiger than youre going to get out of most four-place aircraft in that category, Greg said. Useful load on most of Tigers I've seen run in 900-950lb range. Let us take a look now at these. Click One points out that there are fewer moving parts in an AA-5 than there are in a Cessna 150, and another enjoys how all flight control cables are neatly located in the center of the aircraft and are relatively short in length. That was its strong suit.. The 172 is basically the big sister to the 152-it's a nearly identical airframe, just larger in every dimension to hold four people. You all are so wrong. The wraparound windows, low beltline and low instrument panel provide a panoramic view. This helps tremendously because all of the cost of ownership, flight and maintenance are all shared equally among the 4 partners. I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Pilots Operating Handbook Grumman Tiger at the best online prices at eBay! I think the only way I would chose the Traveller of the Gruman line was because I could get a good airframe and avionics package and upgrade to 180hp cheaper than I could buy a Tiger for, and I don't really see that happening. human checkbox, which will verify that you are indeed a human. So again, if you want to take the family on holiday, having a plane which is faster, more powerful, and can carry more weight, may decide things for you. With a power setting of 2550 rpm to 2600 rpm, Mike usually cruises between 135 and 138 knots. Because there are so many of them, and they have been around a long time, there are a large number of mechanics and engineers who are familiar with what needs to be done to keep them in good working order, and obtaining parts for them should not be an issue either; they are easily available, even for the older Cessna 150s. Being based in Florida,the Flying Educators havemany destinations within a 500-mile radius, including the Bahamas,andmembers wanted an aircraft more suited to that mission. the Forgot Password link. Answer: You wont need a lot of extra tuition, but a few hours with an instructor would really be a good idea. I am not very tall, and I cannot safely fly early Cessna 172s I need two cushions in order to reach the pedals and see outside clearly, and I once had one of them slip as I was about to land! Find more About Us here! If my friend buys it, I'll get a checkout from the current owner, who is a CFI before we start working in it. Huge windows, plus the top of the glareshield is low. Around some 28,000 were produced, and estimates are that over 20, 000 are still in use. All rights reserved. We are a collective group of airline instructors, and pilots dedicated to all things aviation. Pilots Operating Handbook Cessna 152- Pilots Safety And Warning . Join Us | Member Benefits |News| Events |Contact Us. The Cessna 172. Helen is an expert in all things aviation! Both of these aircraft are made by Cessna and are fairly similar when it comes to flying. With a power setting of 2550 rpm to 2600 rpm, Mike usually cruises between 135 and 138 knots. If it is a new paint job people have got stripper in the joints remember this plane is glued together and stripper in the glue is bad, make sure this did not happen. The Tiger has the most reliable light aircraft engine ever designed. Get the Tiger, you local flights will get boring after 100 hours and you'll want to stretch out to further destinations. The Cessna 150 is a two-seater aircraft, whereas the Cessna 172 is a lot larger than the Cessna 150, having four seats. ", Surprisingly, the Citabria was used for cross-country trips more often than you would think, but only if arrival time requirements werent challenging, Greg said. What are the main differences between them? Accordingly, a good, reliable engine-monitoring system is a wise investment, and with the proper adapter, savvy buyers can download engine-monitor data to observe how a seller has been treating the engine. She first obtained a fixed-wing Private Pilots Licence 25 years ago. Compared with those from other manufacturers, the Grumman design replaces many of the cables and pulleys with torque tubes. I'll PM you another one. Cessna 172. Handling is much better, I think, with lighter roll and pitch forces, and better-harmonized controls as well as a quicker roll rate. For a club with a 30-year history flying only. Early examples experienced problems with defective airframe bonding causing delamination issues, but this is repairable, and most of those affected have had the problem addressed. I have watched a lot of Nat Geo, Wild Kingdom, etc. Tiger ". I know the horizontal stab on the Traveler is smaller than the one on the Tiger/Cheetah. Bombardier Challenger 350 Guide and Specs: Is It Up to the Challenge? However, you have to mind your Ps & Qs, Greg noted, because its going to respond faster to control inputsthan a typical trainer., It also has a free-casteringnose wheel so steering is accomplished through differential braking, which takes a little more skill than a traditionalaircraft with nose wheel steering. UBB Message. Are the LoPresti Tiger cowls in production yet? This. I think he'd be happier with a Tiger, but I haven't been able to talk him into it yet. It was this way even before I did the upgrades. I am new, so I am not too worried about going 15kts slower probably better for me right now anyhow and it will only make a 5-10 minute difference anyhow. Or you might prefer the Grumman AA5B, or perhaps the Diamond DV20/DA20 Katana, Ercoupe 415-C, or Diamond DA40 Star, all of which are said to be safe and easy to fly. You cant go wrong with either a Citabria or a Grumman Tiger in your club. AA-5 Traveler & AA-5A Cheetah Competitive Comparison, AA-5B & AG-5B Tiger Competitive Comparison, Pilot Familiarization Program Instructors. This is at least the third Tiger thread in two days. Which engine did he install? Seriously, the acquisition cost is the least of his worries. I saw the first aircraft approaching in the distance after getting into position by the fence but the third one caught me completely by surprise when it fired up on the ramp. So please dont just leap into a Cessna 172 with no experience and expect it to be just like the Cessna 150; it is different. It also has a faster speed and a better range. login you will see the new forum. Similar four-seat. Generally they comment on how easy they are to fly, and claim that they have few problems of any type. Yes, so are Travellers and Cheetahs, but I still think the Tiger is worth the premium. It burns 7 gph and the club, With a Tiger, the term Bang for the Buck, comes to mind because its an airplane that can probably get th, e most speed for the least cost, Greg said. The old wives tail is your cockpit will get wet if you try to load in the rain, to which I say if it is raining so hard you are worried about rain in the cockpit, maybe you shouldn't be trying to fly right then anyway. Greg noted that on a named. Unless you want to go off airport. As a small pilot, with a great deal of experience in the Cessna 150, I most definitely prefer it. The Cessna 172 is a lot more powerful than the Cessna 150. Still not fast enough to be a real cross country plane, imho. The final variant of the AA-5 line was the AA-5B Tiger. . We have moved! With a fuel burn at cruise of around 5 GPH, she does better than my Chevy S10. The Citabria breed has an AD requiring a one-time inspection of the wooden spar where they have to check it for cracks. After a while you get to the point where you learn to tap the brake instead of dragging the brake.". It will carry four people and luggage, and you have a wide choice, from completely new models to budget-priced much older ones. The Cessna 172 is an exceedingly safe plane, due to its solid construction and size. Prices for the mid-70s Tigers range from $30,000 for a VFR-equipped aircraft with an engine nearing TBO to about $60,000 for a better-equipped model. Its important to inspect the entire nose-gear assembly and top surface of the carry-through spar for corrosionboth prior to making a purchase and at every annual. Tiger owner here. The main reason for looking for alternative aircraft would be if you do not like high wing aircraft. :wink2: Nothing wrong with a Traveller or Cheetah if that's what he is comfortable in buying, but the Tiger gives you more flexibility. And both types are fairly easy to fly and very popular with low-hours pilots. And a little more economically.. Owners of both these aircraft types usually like them a lot. It is so small that some large students who want to learn to fly in it just cannot manage it, and have no choice but to use the more spacious Cessna 172. Youre going to get more airspeed out of a Tiger than youre going to get out of most four-place aircraft in that category, Greg said. Also See: Cessna 150 vs 172; Cessna 180 vs 185 Indeed. first Tiger policy premium was $2,360 in 1996, which was slightly higher than the Citabria. Helen has worked as an instructor for several years, flying throughout Europe and the US. Please head over to our new home at the Pilots Place Forum. On average, I can see 100 MPH while spinning the prop at just around 2300 RPM., I have owned two Cessna 150s, an F model that I purchased new in late 1965 and an M model that I purchased 39 years later in the fall of 2004. Small ruder for X wind landing, more than one landed on nose wheel and met their demise not that other aircraft don't. I've never heard anyone say the sliding canopy leaks. The Flying Educators did routine maintenance and annuals in-house with little difficulty, Greg said. There should be few problems with maintenance for either of these aircraft types. Some smaller pilots struggle to fly the Cessna 172, while some large people find they have problems in the Cessna 150 If you are also correspondingly heavy, you could also have an issue with weight and balance. The cost of ownership includes the original purchase price of the airplane, then you have you fixed cost like hangar, insurance etc. If you are looking for a good all-round airplane thats easy to fly, can carry passengers, and will do most of the things any private pilot wants, then the Cessna 172 should be perfect for you. They are both basically a means to make aerial journeys, designed for touring or simply pleasure flying. 1976 Cessna Skyhawk 172 Pilot's Operating Handbook, POH Manual - Used . Among thedifferencesare enginesize,with variations from 115 hp to 180 hp, and whether the wing spar is metal or wood. Members only needed a current medical, current flight review, CFI checkout with logbook entry for the club aircraft make and model, and at least 10 hours in tailwheel aircraft. Its the site, simply click the Register button on the Pilots Place login page to sign Despite the increase in cost, theFlying Educators have never had a problem getting insurance for the Tiger. If you have not yet registered, you can. It s the same friendly, informative place for all things Cessna 172, now with a larger group of pilots and state-of-the-art forum software. Insurance companies are all familiar with both these aircraft, so their charges are likely to be reasonable. There is a reason why so many people fly the Cessna 172, and why it is said to be the most popular aircraft ever produced. Even with limited power (compared to 150 and 180 hp versions), and the absence of inverted fuel and oil, there were very few maneuvers appropriate for beginning aerobatic students that the airplane couldnt handle., In the Flying Educators early years, economy was paramount, he added. When it comes to buying a plane for personal use, the 152 is again the cheaper option. Among the most valuable resources available to Grumman owners are the bustling owners groups. Ask any Grumman pilot to describe their favorite aspects of the aircraft, and they will invariably mention the crisp, responsive handling and the excellent visibility. , which as you know is fully aerobatic, Greg said. many destinations within a 500-mile radius, including the Bahamas. Former Flying Educators Club Secretary and Treasurer Greg Utley shares his thoughts on both aircraft. Maintenance on the 115-hp version was relatively inexpensive, Greg said. Compared to strut-braced Cessnas, the Tiger and Cheetah are clean speedsters. Both are inexpensive to operate and maintain, and a lot of fun to fly. The main parts supplier for Grumman aircraft is an outfit called Fletch Air, and I think theyre based in Houston, he said. Enter your email and click on the I am a with good performance, the Grumman Tiger is a plane you may want to consider. Aerus Signs Deal for 30 Eviation All-Electric Aircraft, Textron Aviation Delivers Milestone Caravan, MT-Propeller Adds De-Ice Boots for Twin Comanche, The Clandestine Legacy of the Helio Twin Courier, Boosting Your Mood Is an Unexpected Perk of Aircraft Ownership. Indeed, unlike most comparable aircraft, there are no moving parts inside of an AA-5s wingall flap and aileron actuation is achieved via easily accessible torque tubes upon which each control surface pivots. Cheetahs are around 850lbs. Man erkennt eine AG-5B auch am T-frmigen Gashebel. But the Cessna 150 is not unsafe by any means. With the assistance of aircraft designer Roy LoPresti, the airframe was cleaned up to reduce drag, the horizontal stabilizer was enlarged to increase elevator authority and expand the CG range, and fuel capacity went from 37 to 52 gallons. I'd take one over a 172 in a heartbeat. The main differences between the Piper Archer and Cessna 172 are: The Piper Archer has only one door on the right-hand side for access, whereas the Cessna 172 has two doors on each side of the aircraft. Aero on Demand, a Houston-based club, also operates a Tiger and it is equipped with an engine monitor providing very accurate data. The Cessna 172 is a lot heavier and more powerful than the Cessna 150, and when I did this conversion I found the Cessna 172 difficult to manage at first. Its a fixed gear, fixed-pitch prop so theres just not a whole lot that can go wrong with the airplane, Greg noted. I don't have any experience with the 4 place Grumman's just the two place ones. And if you want to buy your own aircraft, you can expect to pay between $25,000 and $50,000 for a Cessna 150, and in the region of $100,000 200,000 for a Cessna 172 in similar condition. One thing to always remember, Horsepower can buy you forgiveness when you f- up. They are faster, handle more crisply, have a nice sliding canopy, and are a bit more unusual than offerings from other aircraft in their class from Cessna, Piper and Beech . Depending on how much exposure it has to the sun, it will need to be replaced generally about every 25 to 30 years. Gross weight was increased from the AA-5/AA-5A's 2,200 lb (1,000 kg) to 2,400 lb (1,100 kg) on the Tiger. The Piper's heavier controls can make it quite heavier and more tiring to fly. Gulfstream ceased production of all piston-engined aircraft in 1979 and the highly successful Tiger design went out of production after 1323 aircraft had been delivered. I believe the wing is a time life item and the end of the plane. Free shipping . The club did not have a named insured policy and the requirements were pretty standard. The Flying Educators isan equity clubfounded in 1962based at Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport (KFXE). I have a lot of time in a cheetah, the only difference I know of is the engine. I've already got a bird that will eat a Tiger up.. The AA-5 series serves as an interesting alternative to the comparable Cessna and Piper models that make up the general aviation fleet. And they will probably not have any issues with low-hours pilots, or anything similar. front so youve got good visibility, and, like the Champ it is derived from, it is an easy, forgiving airplane. assistance. 115kts and 120kts respectively? The clubwanted an airplane better suited for cross-country travelandthey settled on the Grumman AA5B Tiger. n, and a lot of fun to fly. The club usesAvemcoand pays $6,000 a year, but Greg noted that Florida is an expensivestate in whichto insure an aircraft because of hurricanes and the fact the state is highly litigious. The club uses, and pays $6,000 a year, but Greg noted that Florida is an expensive, to insure an aircraft because of hurricanes and the fact the state is highly litigious. Still, I think the additional climb rate of the Tiger makes it a better choice, even if speed is not a major concern. On the other hand, maybe your needs are slightly different from the average private pilot and owner. The Tiger has a published book cruise speed of 139 knots but owners generally plan on real-world speeds of 130 to 138 knots. Enjoy!Aircraft: N474EPC172ROutro Song:Gold Skies - Liam Aidan Grumman AA-5 Tiger, Cessna 172R Skyhawk & Eurocopter AS355 TwinStar at Princeton Airport (39N) - YouTube. https://thepilotsplace.com/forum/login. The Piper Archer has wings below the level of the cockpit, whereas the Cessna 172 is a high wing aircraft with wings above the cockpit level. Both are inexpensive to operate and maintai. It holds 52 gallons and has a range of about 700 miles. Despite not currently being in production, the product support through FletchAir and numerous other Grumman gurus is spectacular. Before I bought my Grumman Tiger, I was in a flying club and flew a Cessna Cardinal. If you have four people, filling up to the tabs provides 38 gallons of fuel, and you should be fine for most cross-country flights. I put about 1500 hours on the F model until I traded it around 1970.. Sitting in tandem provides an excellent view, and youre probably more likely to land on grass and go places you might not in a Cherokee or 172, which just adds to the experience. "Three or four of the 10 members would use it for aerobatics a lot. Greg said. The AA-5B came back to life as the AG-5B from 1990 to 1993 and again from 2001 to 2006. The later versions produced in the 1990s and 2000s will cost a bit more with prices in the $75,000 to $100,000 range. The Aircraft Spotlight feature looks at an airplane type and evaluates it across six areas of particular interest to flying clubs and their members: Operating Cost, Maintenance, Insurability, Training, Cross-Country, and Fun Factor. What are your thoughts and experience? Its hard to beat a tandem seat aerobatic aircraft when it comes to fun. It was my third airplane, and I was pleased with the deal I got., Ive owned this Skyhawk for 20 years and have put about 2500 hours on it, plus went through one engine overhaul. This quote has been neglected and underrated for years now . They can provide anything for the airplanewheels, wheel pants, windshields, cowlings, anything you need for a Tiger or similar Grumman aircraftthey can provide.. And, if you are doing aerobatics, you need parachutes that need to be repacked regularly, which would add a cost. All was in order etc, just don't know much about the plane. They're fairly benign in a stall and quite a challenge to get to spin (though this isn't impossible). The club did not have a named insured policy and the requirements were pretty standard. 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