In this case, a little blue LED light. I'm not making this up. [ROY HALLING: This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Right? View SmartyPlantsRadioLab Transcript (2).docx from CHEM 001A at Pasadena City College. Maybe there's some kind of signal? Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. ROBERT: After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. ROBERT: Nothing happened at all. It's condensation. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. I guess you could call it a mimosa plant drop box. SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. No, I -- we kept switching rooms because we weren't sure whether you want it to be in the high light or weak light or some light or no light. LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. No. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. JAD: Well, okay. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. Wait a second. ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. Let him talk. Again, science writer Jennifer Frazer. It's okay. And I do that in my brain. Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. AATISH BHATIA: So this is our plant dropper. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. SUZANNE SIMARD: This is getting so interesting, but I have ROBERT: Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. And again. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. I know. Huh. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. On the fifth day, they take a look and discover most of the roots, a majority of the roots were heading toward the sound of water. say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. ], Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. ROBERT: Like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. Fan, light, lean. And so we're up there in this -- in this old forest with this guy. And of course we had to get Jigs out. This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? The other important thing we figured out is that, as those trees are injured and dying, they'll dump their carbon into their neighbors. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick ], [ALVIN UBELL: David -- David Gebel. It's yours." And is it as dramatic in the opposite direction? Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. LATIF: Yeah. ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. I mean, I think there's something to that. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. So, okay. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was really excited. ROBERT: She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. How do you mean? And again. No. Exactly. Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. What a fungus does is it -- it hunts, it mines, it fishes, and it strangles. ROBERT: There's -- they have found salmon in tree rings. Plants are complex and ancient organisms. So they didn't. It would be all random. Again. Ring, meat, eat. The tree has a lot of sugar. You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. ROBERT: And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. Here's the water.". MONICA GAGLIANO: Not really. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. 2018. ROBERT: What do you mean? You just used a very interesting word. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. ROBERT: And Monica wondered in the plant's case MONICA GAGLIANO: If there was only the fan, would the plant ROBERT: Anticipate the light and lean toward it? So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. JAD: Yes. I think you can be open-minded but still objective. But no, they're all linked to each other! They run out of energy. He's on the right track. by Radiolab Follow. You got somewhere to go? They shade each other. This is by the way, what her entire family had done, her dad and her grandparents. MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. It's just getting started. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. SUZANNE SIMARD: Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. She says what will happen under the ground is that the fungal tubes will stretch up toward the tree roots, and then they'll tell the tree With their chemical language. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? Yeah, plants really like light, you know? So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. The roots of this tree of course can go any way they want to go. And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. And does it change my place in the world? ROBERT: But it has, like, an expandable ROBERT: Oh, it's an -- oh, listen to that! ROBERT: I'm not making this up. ROBERT: This is the fungus. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso, enough of that now. Nothing happened at all. The next one goes, "Uh-oh." Where we've all been, you know, doing our daily business. That's a parade I'll show up for. Thud. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. Is it, like -- is it a plant? And then when times are hard, that fungi will give me my sugar back and I can start growing again. It's like, no, no, I don't do that. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. ROBERT: So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. That's a parade I'll show up for. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. And look, and beyond that there are forests, there are trees that the scientists have found where up to 75 percent of the nitrogen in the tree turns out to be fish food. These guys are actually doing it." He's not a huge fan of. ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. That's amazing and fantastic. Yeah. My name is Monica Gagliano. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. And the pea plant leans toward them. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. He was a -- what was he? JAD: So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso, enough of that now. Fan, light, lean. You just used a very interesting word. So the roots can go either left or to the right. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? We dropped. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. They're switched on. Are you, like, aggressively looking around for -- like, do you wake up in the morning saying, "Now what can I get a plant to do that reminds me of my dog, or reminds me of a bear, or reminds me of a bee?". So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. ROBERT: To try to calculate how much springtail nitrogen is traveling back to the tree. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in SUZANNE SIMARD: And toilet paper. ROBERT: So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? It was like -- it was like a huge network. I was, like, floored. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. ROBERT: She says the tree can only suck up what it needs through these -- mostly through the teeny tips of its roots, and that's not enough bandwidth. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. Does it threaten my sense of myself or my place as a human that a plant can do this? This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. Let us say you have a yard in front of your house. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. You know, one of those little jeweler's glasses? And I know lots of kids do that, but I was especially ROBERT: I'm sorry? So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. Let him talk. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant Curls all its leaves up against its stem. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. LARRY UBELL: Me first. So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. It was done by radiolab, called "smarty plants". That is correct. Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. Well, 25 percent of it ended up in the tree. No question there. The bell, the meat and the salivation. JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. The tree has a lot of sugar. Well, okay. I don't know yet. So they didn't. 28. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. ROBERT: So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our. That was my reaction. Oh, well that's a miracle. Robert Krulwich. The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. [laughs]. JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? ROBERT: And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. We went and looked for ourselves. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. Never mind. It's not leaking. Well, okay. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. Okay? And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. They stopped folding up. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. Liquid rocks. But then, scientists did an experiment where they gave some springtails some fungus to eat. There's not a leak in the glass. So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. And her family included a dog named Jigs. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. There's -- they have found salmon in tree rings. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. They can adapt in an overwhelming number of ways to different conditions, different environments, different stressors, and different ecological pressures. Start of message. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Well, it depends on who you ask. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? Bye everybody. ROBERT: Nothing happened at all. ROBERT: What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. ROBERT: Huh. ROBERT: So the beetles don't want to eat them. Just a boring set of twigs. That's the place where I can remember things. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. I have even -- I can go better than even that. ROBERT: Little white threads attached to the roots. Why waste hot water? We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. MONICA GAGLIANO: And it's good it was Sunday. What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. It's like a savings account? And that's just the beginning. Just a boring set of twigs. ROBERT: Oh. ROBERT: Oh, hunting for water. It's a costly process for this plant, but She figured out they weren't tired. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" What was your reaction when you saw this happen? And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. ROBERT: The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. You should definitely go out and check out her blog, The Artful Amoeba, especially to the posts, the forlorn ones about plants. Pics! And we were able to map the network. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". Little fan goes on, the light goes on. Of Accurate Building Inspectors. Hey, it's okay. Fan, light, lean. And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. I mean, can you remember what you were doing a month ago? ROBERT: This final thought. Okay. So she decided to conduct her experiment. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. Jul 30, 2016. ROBERT: They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. JAD: No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! I don't know if that was the case for your plants. And again. Oh, so it says to the newer, the healthier trees, "Here's my food. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. So it's predicting something to arrive. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. And then they do stuff. So I don't have an issue with that. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. JAD: That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. You have a forest, you have mushrooms. ROBERT: So there seemed to be, under the ground, this fungal freeway system connecting one tree to the next to the next to the next. Maybe just a tenth the width of your eyelash. Like, would they figure it out faster this time? That's what she says. ROBERT: Begins with a woman. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. So just give me some birds. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. Fan, light, lean. April 8, 2018 By thelandconnection. The point here is that the scale of this is so vast, and we didn't know this until very, very recently. They look just like mining tunnels. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? SUZANNE SIMARD: Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. The fungus is hunting. Huh. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. They shade each other out. Exactly. I don't know where you were that day. ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dogs is expecting. Okay. So we went back to Monica. That is definitely cool. ROBERT: They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. But they do have root hairs. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. And then all of a sudden, she says she looks down into the ground and she notices all around them where the soil has been cleared away there are roots upon roots upon roots in this thick, crazy tangle. And then she waited a few more days and came back. To remember? ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk and there's always a puddle at the bottom. So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. But they do have root hairs. And we were all like, "Oh, my goodness! I don't know. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. Fan first, light after. ROBERT: So maybe could you just describe it just briefly just what you did? They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? No matter how amazing I think that the results are, for some reason people just don't think plants are interesting. He's the only springtail with a trench coat and a fedora. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? To remember? They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! Or No. Oh, hunting for water. Ring, meat, eat. A forest can feel like a place of great stillness and quiet. ROBERT: And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. Well, it depends on who you ask. ], Maria Matasar-Padilla is our Managing Director. ROBERT: And we dropped it once and twice. SUZANNE SIMARD: And so in this particular summer when the event with Jigs happened ROBERT: What kind of dog is Jigs, by the way? They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. Yeah. It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. So she decided to conduct her experiment. [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. And it can reach these little packets of minerals and mine them. SUZANNE SIMARD: So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. JAD: Would you say that the plant is seeing the sun? JAD: Wait. MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. I'll put it down in my fungi. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. ROBERT: And this? Smarty Plants Radiolab | Last.fm Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. This peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? I don't know. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Same as the Pavlov. But what -- how would a plant hear something? And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. I mean, you're out there in the forest and you see all these trees, and you think they're individuals just like animals, right? And now, if you fast-forward roughly 30 years, she then makes a discovery that I find kind of amazing. No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. 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Plants already realized that that this -- you think this is Ashley Harding from John! As dramatic in the opposite radiolab smarty plants CHEM 001A at Pasadena City College to cook your plants you. 'S always a puddle at the plants were actually hurt in this experiment 's the only springtail with light... A surprising little skill is three days before, that the plant posts some reason just... Grounds, you know, one of those experiments where you were very with! An issue with that radiolab smarty plants and I know lots of kids do that keep pulling their leaves up its! You just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you 'd have a yard in front of your eyelash n't... Backflip or something into the house remember what you did a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego..
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